Gabor Maté tells Chris Evans that what is considered normal in society 'is actually toxic for a lot of people'

Virgin Radio

28 Sep 2023, 10:44

Hungarian-Canadian physician and author Gabor Maté joined the Chris Evans Breakfast Show with cinch to talk about his book, The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness & Healing in a Toxic Culture.

The book, co-written with his son Daniel and released in September last year, investigates the relationship between our emotional wellbeing and social connectivity, revealing how the pressures of modern life corrode our physical and mental health.

Gabor explained: “As a medical doctor, I'm trained to work with what's called a range of normal parameters. So within a range of temperature, your life is possible. If the temperature is too low, the body temperature too high, you die. Blood acidity, blood pressure, a range of normal is natural and healthy, outside of which you die. In this society, we assume that a lot of things that we take for granted, that we see as normal, we also assume that they're healthy and natural. I'm saying that in this society, what is considered normal is actually toxic for a lot of people. And it's a source of a lot of illness, pathology of mind and body.” 

He continued: “If, in a laboratory, a scientist was growing microorganisms in a brew, we'd call that a laboratory culture. If a lot of these organisms were getting sick or not doing well, we'd say it's a toxic culture. In British society, in North American society, in global society, depression and anxiety are the fastest growing diagnosis. More and more kids are being diagnosed with ADHD. There's more autoimmune disease, there's something about this culture that's toxic. 

“So, what we consider normal is actually not healthy or natural in society. That's the meaning of the title.”

Gabor, who is in the UK to speak at sold-out events, told Chris about epigenetics. He said: “Epigenetics is the way that the environment affects the functioning of our genes. There’s an assumption in this society that people's character traits and behaviours are genetically determined, or that their mental health conditions are genetically programmed. They're not. It's actually the environment working on the genes, which is called epigenetics, that determines how our brains function, and how we function very often. 

“Really what affects us most is our environment, our social relationships, our personal relationships, our childhoods and the culture that we live in.”

Talking about Big T and Small T Trauma, the doctor and author explained: “Big T Trauma where things happen to you that shouldn't have happened. What I call Small T Trauma is not where terrible things happen that shouldn't have, but when the good things that should happen, didn't happen. So for example, kids need to be held. They need to be emotionally and physically held. When that doesn't happen, they still get wounded, which is what the trauma means. It’s a wound. So we can hurt kids, not by doing bad things to them, but just by not giving them what they need.” 

When Chris asked how it is possible to unpick all of this on a global level, Gabor replied: “Well, the first thing is to recognise it. The things that I'm saying about trauma and its impacts have been studied and published tens of thousands of times. The average physician doesn't get any of this information in medical school. Richard Bentall, a British psychologist, a member of the British Academy, said that the link between childhood adversity and adult mental health problems is as clearly established as the link between smoking and lung cancer. The average psychiatrist doesn't have a clue. It’s not their fault. It’s not part of the medical aetiology. 

“And so the first thing you have to do is you have to talk about it and just recognise it. In this society, there's a huge push back against the very idea of talking about trauma. And, and so the first thing we have to do is just to be very open and honest about it.” 

On his own well-being, the doctor said: “I've written a book called When The Body Says No. When you don’t take care of yourself, when you don't say no, the body will say it for you in the form of illness. And sometimes people come to me and say, ‘Your book saved my life’. And my response is, ‘Maybe I should read it myself!’, because I really drove myself too hard this year and I got quite anxious and sometimes depressed and demoralised, in the midst of all this success. 

“And then I did something radical. This summer, I did a two-week sabbatical from the internet, cell phones, YouTube, and I started to meditate and do yoga. And boy oh, boy, what a transformation!” 

On what’s next, the physician said: “Daniel and I are writing a book called Hello Again: A Fresh Start For Parents & Their Adult Children. Because we've had our own stuff to work out, believe me.

“It should be out in 2025.”

The Myth Of Normal is out now. Find out more at drgabormate.com.

For more great interviews listen to  The Chris Evans Breakfast Show with cinch weekdays from 6:30am on Virgin Radio, or catch up on-demand here.